WEBVTT

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 Hello! This is DeafDots, 
24 January 2025. 

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Bringing alerts & news reports at 
intervals for all Deaf Canadians. 

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[ANSELMO]: A Deaf indigenous man
 who experienced intense isolation 

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in federal prison has filed a complaint 
with the Canadian Human Rights 

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Tribunal against Correctional 
Service Canada (CSC). 

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Finally the case was heard 
by the tribunal in October 2024. 

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This case focuses on the experience 
of our client who is both Deaf and Métis. 

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It really highlights the systemic 
nature of the discrimination that 

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he experienced and the need
 for systemic changes to policies and 

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practices to prevent this kind
 of discrimination from happening 

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to anyone else. Correctional 
Service Canada admitted liability 

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for discrimination so the thrust 
of the hearing was really 

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about what kind of remedies 
are appropriate, and in our view, 

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as I said, this really calls
 for systemic changes. 

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Things like what they call 
a Commissioner’s Directive, 

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or a policy around the accommodation
 of people with disabilities, 

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in particular people who 
are Deaf and hard of hearing, 

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the adoption of the Video Relay System
 so that Deaf and hard of hearing people 

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in custody have a way to make phone 
calls that is equivalent to the way 

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that non-Deaf individuals can make 
phone calls, and policies and 

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guidelines around the provisions
 of ASL and LSQ interpretation.

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 The man is represented by both 
Prisoners’ Legal Services and 

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 the law firm of Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt 
which is a major law firm in Canada and USA. 

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Many Deaf prisoners
 face obstacles in prisons. 

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One instance which hit me during
 an assessment intake when you first come 

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in which is like an interview
 to make sure you are placed 

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in an appropriate part of the jail, 
right unit with provisions. 

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That Deaf prisoner did not have
 an interpreter which can lead 

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to numerous misunderstandings and 
affect where the prisoner is placed. 

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Too many misunderstandings.
 The program he wanted to go in he couldn't. 

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It was a horrible ordeal. 
Deaf prisoners and hearing prisoners 

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do not have the same access
 to all areas inside the prison, 

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programs and services
 including doctors, medical care, 

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appointments and so forth. 
Equal access? Not at all. 

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Deaf prisoners get below attention.

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[ANSELMO]: A report in “Indian Time”, 
a weekly community newspaper reporting 

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on Indigenous matters said the man, 
who is Métis, was denied access 

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to ASL interpreters and access to VRS. 
He was unable to contact his family, 

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get medical services, participate
 in Indigenous cultural and spiritual practices, 

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and could not work with prison 
staff, succeed in the community 

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or communicate with legal counsel. 
He was not able to participate 

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in the daily life of prison. 

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Dr. Debra Russell, 
honorary president 

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of the World Association
 of Sign Language Interpreters 

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provided expert testimony
 during the hearing. 

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I was brought in as an expert
 witness because of my involvement 

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in research for many years. I am, 
myself, an interpreter who works often 

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in legal settings, and also have a PhD. 
My PhD is in analyzing interpreters 

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in courts and comparing simultaneous 
interpreting vs. taking turns interpreting. 

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I wrote two books 
related to legal interpreting. 

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I was involved in many studies 
and research into environments of legal 

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interpreting so I have
 interest in this issue. 

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I have experiences that, from the university 
perspective, indicate I am an expert. 

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I don't like the word "Expert" but this
 is the term used in the judiciary system.

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The Deaf prisoner was named, and
 there is also another Deaf prisoner. 

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Both in federal prison. The Human
 Rights lawyer showed the hearing judge 

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that there is a pattern of federal 
prison officials including wardens 

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saying no and refusing to use interpreters
 and were concerned about money. 

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They put limits and said Deaf prisoners
 couldn't get full and limited their access.

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 No interpreters for programs, 
different classes and different courses. 

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 Both Deaf prisoners, the one
 who filled out the Human Rights complaint 

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 who was identified as Likea, 
and the other male, 

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 also Deaf both had complained
 and requested for interpreters. 

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 The second Deaf prisoner, 
a male requested an interpreter and 

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 ended up being placed in solitary 
confinement for a while before getting out. 

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 Now I want to say which you may
 not like and think of prisoners as "bad" 

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 but we, at CDGM do not care what 
the crimes the Deaf prisoners did, 

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 that is not the point
 in the Human Rights hearing. 

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 The point is that Deaf prisoners 
should have access within prisons, 

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 programs, classes, medical
 and mental health and so on, 

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 but were not provided with interpreters. 
They had to write notes back and forth. 

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 Now if you look at the overall 
picture... hearing prisoners 

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 in a group and Deaf prisoners
 in another group. 

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 The hearing prisoners, after they
 commit crimes and are jailed, 

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 as part of their requirements 
must take, for example, 

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 anger management and other classes. 
Their original jail sentences, 

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 say 15 years, having taken these classes 
and programs and doing good, 

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 demonstrate initiative and 
work hard to improve by changing 

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 for the better to have their sentences 
reduced so they can get out earlier. 

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 Now the Deaf prisoners... cannot get 
interpreters, cannot get into programs... 

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 cannot take classes, remain in jail and 
cannot have their sentences reduced. 

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 Do you call it fair?

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We decided to take on this 
case because it is quite clear 

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to us that Deaf people in custody 
have the right to communicate, 

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that they should have access to ASL
 interpreters and VRS for phone calls 

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the way people do in the community, and
 that Correctional Services Canada’s failure 

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to provide that is discriminatory. 
Our client in this case has suffered 

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really significant harm and isolation due 
to Correctional Services Canada’s failure 

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to provide these things to him. And
 so we are working with him to bring 

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these issues forward and seek
 redress not just for him but 

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for all people who are Deaf and
 hard of hearing in custody. 

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And as a legal aid clinic
 all of our services 

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are free so we don’t charge 
anyone for our legal services.

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Really the issues overlap. Deaf prisoners 
related to interpreter access 

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and services provided in jail and 
providing them with various access. 

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The Metis prisoner, who
 was adopted by white parents, 

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had no knowledge
 about Metis history. 

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While in jail, he wanted to meet
 an Elder, wanted an interpreter 

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to communicate but was denied. 

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He didn't need it, they felt Indigenous
 and Indigenous language 

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would be too hard to interpret. 
They imposed a limit on his access. 

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There actually are programs
 that last 3 hours but 

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the interpreters were limited to 1 hour. 

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For day-long programs
 and all day activities, 

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they provide interpreters for like 2 hours, 
that's it. Mental health... 

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you know how dangerous
 it could be sometimes... 

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writing notes back and forth 
can lead to misunderstandings and 

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influence incorrect analysis 
of mental health, that's another issue. 

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Really there are overlapping issues. 
So right now we can only follow and see... 

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hopefully Deaf prisoners win so the Canadian
 government improves accessibility 

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to make sure all prisoners, regardless of hearing
 or Deaf have the same access, period.

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[ANSELMO]: Is this case 
the first Deaf, Indigenous 

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or Prison Rights case your
 law firm has taken on? 

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Prisoners’ Legal Services - our mission is 
to protect the rights of people 

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in prisons and jails
 across British Columbia. 

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And we do that in part by providing 
legal assistance to individual clients 

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who are in custody and then we also 
take on systemic litigation and advocacy 

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to address these issues on a broader scale. 
We have taken on numerous prison 

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rights cases including
 several cases involving 

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the rights of Indigenous people in custody. 
We have also provided legal assistance 

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to a number of Deaf individuals
 including in human rights matters.

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[ANSELMO]: What is the current
 status or timetable of this case?

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The time table for the case is that
 the hearing was completed 

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in October of 2024 and the parties are working 
on their closing submissions right now. 

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A date has been set in March of 2025 
for oral closing submissions and 

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then we will wait for a decision
 from the Tribunal, 

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which could take potentially 
a year or more. 

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Yes, I am hopeful the Canadian 
Human Rights Tribunal case will rule 

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to support Deaf prisoners. There are many issues
 related to communication access 

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that can be resolved, for example 
for doctor appointments, 

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psychiatrist appointments could use VRI. 
For everyday calls to friends and 

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family and connecting to the community
 is important. They could use VRS. 

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In the US, England and other countries
 Deaf prisoners there have access 

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to VRS which means Canada
 can also do the same. 

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I am optimistic. We will see 
what the outcome is.

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[ANSELMO]: On December 13, an American
 vlogger posted on “Rica’s Home” 

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page on Facebook showing a side-by-side 
comparison between Hearview glasses 

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and INMO Go glasses. This vlog went viral 
and raised many issues. 

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What exactly are Hearview glasses 
and INMO Go glasses?

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[ANSELMO]: The Hearview glasses can
 translate talk to text making 

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it possible for Deaf people 
to read what is being said. 

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What has become controversial? 
The Rica’s Home vlog shows that 

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"Hearview Subtitle Glasses" is 
actually INMO GO glasses which

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 were purchased and repackaged with a downsized 
app selling for significantly higher price. 

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With her friend, they showed similarities between 
two different talk-to-text eyeglasses. 

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Tells you the truth between the two, really 
both are the same, the specs are the same. 

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One for $1,300, the other for $300… IMNO Go and HearView… 
one is four times the other.

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[ANSELMO]: DeafDots reached out
 to INMO GO, Hearview and Xiao-I 

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but all 3 companies did not respond. 

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There are other issues related to
 use of these captioning eyeglasses: 

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firstly, they relay conversation
 one-way - from talk to text. 

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It does not resolve how the Deaf user 
can respond to the hearing person. 

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Environment issues can arise - noisy places, 
several people talking at same time, 

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and distortions can make reliance 
on captioning eyeglasses difficult. 

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[ANSELMO]: Before Rica’s Home
 posted their side-by-side comparison, 

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several social media influencers 
with large followers posted glowing 

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reviews on how wonderful Hearview was. 
The question that Rikki Poynter, 

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who is Deaf but speaks for herself, raised
 is whether these influencers disclosed 

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by signing or showing caption to clarify 
whether they were getting paid 

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for doing these reviews or if they were
 gifted with free caption eyeglasses 

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in exchange doing the review. Some influencers 
were offering discount codes 

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to customers which indicated the influencers 
were getting paid commissions. 

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These could create legal issues 
and get the influencers in trouble. 

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[ANSELMO]: In August, Deaf Children's 
Society of BC (DCS) announced that 

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Teresa Fleming has replaced Janene 
Seabrook to be its executive director. 

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DeafDots asked Robyn Mackie, 
DeafDots street reporter to tell us more 

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about Deaf Children’s Society of BC.

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[ROBYN]: DCS first started as the Counselling
 and Home Training Program 

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for Deaf Children and their Families. 
Over the past 40 years 

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it has evolved to become 
an independent organization. 

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It still maintains its affiliation 
with the BC Children's Hospital.

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DCS provides programs and services
 to support families raise their children 

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and navigate the Deafhood journey, 
understand their identity, 

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their self-esteem, their feeling of belonging
 in the Deaf Community including DCCW - 

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Deaf Community Cultural Wealth 
providing exposure to the families. 

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We empower families here in BC, 
not just in BC but across Canada. 

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We partner SDHHS - Saskatchewan 
Deaf and Hard of Hearing Services and 

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Silent Voice Canada to provide 
education and empowerment 

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to families to understand
 what it feels to belong 

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to the Deaf community and 
understand language acquisition and 

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better health in raising their children. 

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Our goal is to increase 
partnerships across Canada.

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[ROBYN]: What led you to getting 
your current position as ED?

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When I moved to work at DCS
 I worked as an ASL Specialist. 

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Then I became co-director working 
with Janene Seabrook (namesign) last August 2023. 

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We worked together on operations. 
Then she transferred out and 

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I became Director last June 2024.

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[ROBYN]: You have a long history
 in early intervention?

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Before I became director at DCS, 
I worked in Winnipeg, 

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Manitoba at STCC - 
Sign Talk Children's Centre which 

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is the first bibi childcare 
centre across Canada. 

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I also worked as supervisor
 of the EarlyStart Home Visit Program 

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for 16 years until it folded. I moved to Saskatchewan 
Deaf and Hard of Hearing Services, 

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SDHHS and founded ECFS - 
Early Childhood Family Services program. 

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Then I moved to Ontario and worked 
at Silent Voice Canada with EHP - 

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Early Hearing Program as ASL Consultant. 
Then I moved to BC and am now DCS Director.

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[ROBYN]: You worked for Silent Voice
 in Toronto then joined DCS in 2022. 

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How do you describe yourself, 
are you a Child Advocate, 

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or a social service agency representative. 
What is your background?

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00:28:30.840 --> 00:28:31.751


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00:28:31.751 --> 00:28:37.795
I am a Deaf Community advocate, 
Sign Language advocate, 

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embrace Deaf Culture and ASL literacy, 
ASL Deaf Literature expansion, 

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ASL storyteller, and advocate IBPOC, 
Indigenous Indian, Black, Asian and 

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00:29:04.141 --> 00:29:19.211
Brown people all to be included. 
I also support Social Justice for all people.

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00:29:19.211 --> 00:29:19.500


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00:29:19.834 --> 00:29:28.935
In researching this story, DCS announced
 in June that its preschool program 

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would not run during
 the 2024-2025 year. 

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What were the challenges and 
are you planning to restart the preschool 

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and is there a timetable for it?

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00:29:39.945 --> 00:29:40.866


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00:29:40.866 --> 00:29:50.007
That is a challenge... finding ECE teachers 
specifically Deaf Culture training 

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with language acquisition with experience
 in working with Deaf and Hard of Hearing, 

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00:29:56.263 --> 00:30:05.925
DeafBlind, Deaf Disabled and CODA - 
child of Deaf Adults with their language acquisition, 

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00:30:05.925 --> 00:30:11.976
their training and familiarity 
with bilingual language philosophy. 

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00:30:11.976 --> 00:30:15.884
It's not easy to find an ECE 
teacher across Canada. 

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That's why DCS closed the preschool. 

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I hope to find ECE teachers 
especially with bibi experience.

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00:30:25.290 --> 00:30:25.994


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00:30:25.994 --> 00:30:28.348
[ROBYN]: What are your goals 
for DCS going forward?

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00:30:28.348 --> 00:30:29.124


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00:30:29.124 --> 00:30:37.395
We recently formed a committee, 
Childhood Sign Language Deprivation 

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00:30:37.395 --> 00:30:47.559
Prevention Committee which includes ASL and LSQ, 
MSL and Indigenous Sign Languages 

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00:30:47.559 --> 00:30:53.996
across Canada, preserve and highlight, 
and make sure to spread word 

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that sign language rights must be met. 
The group has been meeting and is growing. 

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If you are interested in joining, 
you are welcome. Let me know!

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00:31:07.115 --> 00:31:13.610
[ROBYN]: DCS has a great mission. Did you know 
Teresa when she was working in Toronto?

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00:31:14.287 --> 00:31:16.532
[ANSELMO]: Yes I remember her. 

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00:31:16.532 --> 00:31:22.917
She is still paving the path to improved 
education for Deaf children!

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00:31:22.917 --> 00:31:26.949


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00:31:26.949 --> 00:31:30.981


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00:31:30.981 --> 00:31:35.013


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00:31:35.013 --> 00:31:39.045


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00:31:39.045 --> 00:31:43.077


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00:31:47.109 --> 00:31:51.141


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[ANSELMO]: ASL classes are offered 
at "UBC Extended Learning" 

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at University of British Columbia which 
provides flexible learning opportunities 

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00:32:11.136 --> 00:32:22.445
both online and in-person learning. 
The goal of UBC Extended Learning, 

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operating since 1936, 
is to teach transferable skills, 

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00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:43.315
build on your strengths, technical
 skills to thrive in the digital economy, 

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or the joy of discovery and learning. 
They offer different courses - 

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lectures, open learning, adult 
education, non-credit, part-time, 

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continuing studies and remote learning.

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00:33:12.282 --> 00:33:22.424


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[ANSELMO]: UBC offers conversational 
courses in different languages. 

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In addition to what you saw in video, they 
also have Dutch, German, Portuguese, and… 

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00:33:39.103 --> 00:33:47.230
you guess it! American Sign Language. 
DeafDots contacted UBC to get more details.

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00:33:47.230 --> 00:33:48.238


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00:33:48.238 --> 00:33:52.049
UBC Extended Learning has been offering ASL 
programming for over 10 years now, 

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00:33:52.049 --> 00:33:55.861
and the interest has been steadily 
growing over that decade. 

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00:33:55.861 --> 00:33:59.672
In the beginning, 
we only really offered one level. 

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00:33:59.672 --> 00:34:03.484
We offered our American Sign Language 
Beginner One class, 

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00:34:03.484 --> 00:34:07.295
which just touched on the basics. 
But as interest continued to expand, 

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00:34:07.295 --> 00:34:11.107
we really expanded into the Signing 
Naturally One to Six curriculum, 

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00:34:11.107 --> 00:34:14.918
offering that programming over
 a series of five courses of 20 hours each. 

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00:34:14.918 --> 00:34:17.972
Demand continued to grow, 
so we now offer a number of different 

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00:34:17.972 --> 00:34:21.027
sections of various levels in the Signing
 Naturally One to Six curriculum, 

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00:34:21.027 --> 00:34:24.081
and additionally, are also
 now offering Signing Naturally Seven 

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00:34:24.081 --> 00:34:27.990
to 12 at select times throughout the year. 
We've also added an additional 

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00:34:27.990 --> 00:34:31.900
amount of cultural programming, 
bringing in guest presenters 

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00:34:31.900 --> 00:34:35.809
from the deaf community, 
particularly in our Summer Institutes 

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00:34:35.809 --> 00:34:39.719
in American Sign Language, where 
students can fast track their learning 

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00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:43.628
in ASL and also get exposure 
to members of the deaf community and 

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00:34:43.628 --> 00:34:47.538
various deaf experiences and
 values throughout the deaf community, 

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00:34:47.538 --> 00:34:51.447
including Indigenous presenters
 as well. And this past year, 

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00:34:51.447 --> 00:34:55.357
we had a mini workshop on LSQ, 
as well, to bring more awareness 

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00:34:55.357 --> 00:34:59.266
around the Quebecois
 sign language used in Canada. 

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00:34:59.266 --> 00:35:03.175
There's no formal testing
 in our courses as they are non-credit, 

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00:35:03.175 --> 00:35:07.085
which means they don't contribute 
to a degree. But there are assignments. 

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00:35:07.085 --> 00:35:10.840
There are quizzes to make sure 
students are learning the material 

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00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:14.594
and integrating it. And of course, 
there's weekly homework. 

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00:35:14.594 --> 00:35:15.107


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00:35:15.107 --> 00:35:24.700
[ANSELMO]: Are these ASL classes
 all online, or in-person, or hybrid?

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00:35:24.700 --> 00:35:25.189


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00:35:25.189 --> 00:35:28.342
In terms of formats, we currently 
offer both in-person and 

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00:35:28.342 --> 00:35:31.495
online learning opportunities in ASL. 
So you can take either format. 

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00:35:31.495 --> 00:35:34.648
And I would say about 75% of the learning
 opportunities are currently online, 

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00:35:34.648 --> 00:35:40.527
when 25% are held downtown at UBC, 
Robson Square location in downtown Vancouver. 

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00:35:40.527 --> 00:35:41.234


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00:35:41.234 --> 00:35:45.767
[ANSELMO]: Who currently 
teaches the ASL courses and 

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00:35:45.767 --> 00:35:50.299
how do you screen qualifications 
for ASL teaching positions?

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00:35:50.299 --> 00:35:50.460


322
00:35:50.602 --> 00:35:55.228
Our teachers come from many
 different backgrounds and experiences. 

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00:35:55.228 --> 00:35:58.681
And they live throughout 
British Columbia. They've been trained 

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00:35:58.681 --> 00:36:02.135
to teach the Signing Naturally curriculum. 
And most of them come with quite 

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00:36:02.135 --> 00:36:05.588
a few years of experience in teaching
 adults, both a mixture of deaf, 

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00:36:05.588 --> 00:36:09.041
hearing, and hard of hearing
 adults and children, 

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00:36:09.041 --> 00:36:12.494
but particular focus 
on teaching adults. 

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00:36:12.494 --> 00:36:15.948
And we do occasionally get 
teachers that are a little bit newer, 

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00:36:15.948 --> 00:36:19.401
but when this happens, we usually pair 
them up with a more experienced teacher 

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00:36:19.401 --> 00:36:22.854
so they can get shadow experience
 and mentorship experience 

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00:36:22.854 --> 00:36:26.308
as they start out practising a little bit 
more of the knowledge they've learned. 

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00:36:26.308 --> 00:36:29.398
Many of our teachers have worked 
with both deaf and hearing communities and 

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00:36:29.398 --> 00:36:32.488
also with members
 of the hard of hearing community. 

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00:36:32.488 --> 00:36:33.266


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00:36:33.266 --> 00:36:38.888
[ANSELMO]: I see. What kinds
 of students take these ASL courses?

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00:36:38.888 --> 00:36:39.805


337
00:36:39.805 --> 00:36:43.556
Students in the program, they vary 
in age, they vary in location, 

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00:36:43.556 --> 00:36:47.307
and they vary in interest. 
Many of them are located throughout 

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00:36:47.307 --> 00:36:51.057
British Columbia and other parts 
of Canada. And there are quite

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00:36:51.057 --> 00:36:54.808
 a few also that are centered in Vancouver
 and throughout the Lower Mainland. 

341
00:36:54.808 --> 00:36:58.559
 They're mainly looking to
 connect with the deaf community, 

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00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:02.309
 to understand its culture and its values
 better, while also learning ASL 

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00:37:02.309 --> 00:37:06.060
 and expanding their own commitment
 to inclusivity and partnering and inclusivity. 

344
00:37:06.060 --> 00:37:09.811
 We do sometimes get groups of friends 
or family members or coworkers that 

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00:37:09.811 --> 00:37:13.561
 decide they want to learn together, and
 they come in as a group to join the class. 

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00:37:13.561 --> 00:37:17.312
 Or we sometimes have individuals who maybe 
have family members who are deaf, 

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00:37:17.312 --> 00:37:21.063
 or colleagues who are deaf, or friends
 who are deaf or hard of hearing. 

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00:37:21.063 --> 00:37:24.813
 And so they have an increased
 interest in learning ASL. 

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00:37:24.813 --> 00:37:28.564
 The groups are always dynamic, they're 
diverse, and they’re highly engaged. 

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00:37:28.564 --> 00:37:32.315
 And most of the students never miss a class. 
It really means a lot to them to be there, 

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00:37:32.315 --> 00:37:36.065
 and they forge really beautiful 
relationships, friendships, 

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00:37:36.065 --> 00:37:39.816
 and get to be enriched by the incredible
 experience that their instructors 

353
00:37:39.816 --> 00:37:43.567
 share with them and the beautiful 
language that they're learning.

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00:37:43.567 --> 00:37:43.977


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00:37:43.977 --> 00:37:50.015
[ANSELMO]: Thanks, Matthew. 
It is always great to have more opportunities 

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00:37:50.015 --> 00:37:56.054
for hearing people wanting 
to learn or practice ASL. 

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00:37:56.054 --> 00:38:05.396
UBC ensures that students are immersed
 in learning about culture of Deaf people 

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00:38:05.396 --> 00:38:16.187
and the Deaf Community. It sets up 
students to truly understand and 

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00:38:16.187 --> 00:38:24.239
respect the Deaf experience. We hope you
 have enjoyed this DeafDots program. 

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00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:40.700
We encourage you to send news suggestions 
through our website www.DeafDots.ca 

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00:38:40.700 --> 00:38:51.445
or email to news@deafdots.ca. 

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00:38:51.445 --> 00:38:54.734
Don’t forget to subscribe, 
like, and follow 

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00:38:54.734 --> 00:39:00.246
DeafDots to get new video updates! 

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00:39:00.246 --> 00:39:02.884


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